I am not sure what this sudden hostility is for, i am just making a point that those taking the money play a big role in all of it as well, why absolve those selling their products for great wealth but only condemn those buying it?

Point is that if all that was happening was that the West was sending a tanker to Aqaba, writing a check, filling it up, and leaving, nobody in the M.E. would be annoyed with the West.

Well actually my comment on polling was concerning general views of support for terrorists in Western society and how it related to loyalties between the nation Muslims life in and their faith, you can;t possibly believe American Muslims are as uneducated as those in Muslim dominated Countries can you?

The variable in the equation as it comes to Muslims in the West are if you are born here or not, not education. At the point in time, most Muslims in the West were still born “there”. So, they still hold medieval views of the world in general.

maybe if we look deep enough it is specific imams people are listening to to give them interpretations and push an agenda?

There’s no doubt that the Saudi funded imams are part of the problem. If you have a mosque in the US that needed money, it was amazing how fast the Saudis would figure that out and send money — and a cleric — to you. This is one of the things that I hope ends with bin Salman taking over there.

Oh the Palestine talking points is just an excuse,

Sorry, it’s not.

Also, who are Muslims to claim land gained by winning a war is not legitimate?

On that part we agree.

Care to guess how the current property lines were established for every Muslim Nation in the region?

Don’t need to. They were drawn up after WW2 by the West intentionally to exacerbate tribal tensions. It was amazingly successful.

Let me ask you a question, let’s say the Palestinians were successful in their war and took a lot of land away from the hated Jews, would they then give it back? I believe any honest person would admit they would not, so why are the Jews obligated to give back land acquired as a result of Palestinians losing a war they started?

That’s really not the issue. The issue is that “Palestine”, such as it exists, essentially exists as an Israeli-occupied territory where the resident population can have their house bulldozed on a whim, and if the Israeli’s get it wrong, the family has no recourse (just to give one specific example).

That, and the fact that if Israel feels like building a settlement, they just grab some land and go ahead and do it. If that seems “fair” to you, or “justified” by the fact that the Palestinians try to fight back, then we’ll have to disagree.

And let’s also consider the fact Palestinians still have a bounty system in place paying Muslims for killing Jews. Imagine if this same policy was in place in Israel and they were paying a bounty for every murdered Muslim, would that be well received? but it is seen as perfectly normal and acceptable for Muslims to have death bounties on Jews?

Obviously nobody should be putting bounties out on anyone. Murder is evil.

My question was, why would we not want to help them get back to that wonderful place?

Good question.

I bet they are wonderful to see but heart wrenching to see how those societies devolved so horribly?


Understanding and sympathising is a very short step…

I’d have to disagree. Understanding is a rational function. Sympathizing is an emotional reaction. Two entirely different things, in my view.

Common? No. Beheading and stoning are, to my knowledge, only practiced in Saudi Arabia. The rest of the Muslim countries just hang you. :-(

These are not legal sentences being carried out by government officials. I was under the impression that we were talking about legalities, not vigilantism, which is indeed a problem in some regions which are not closely governed.

As far as the stoning sentence in Iran, you need to read your own citation. The article that you cited itself says that Iran no longer practices death by stoning, and raises suspicions abut the accuracy of the report.

The stoning sentence is issued while the Islamic Republic of Iran’s former Chief Justice has issued a directive instructing judges to refrain from issuing the medieval and inhuman sentence of stoning.”

Which is what my understanding of the situation in Iran is today, and….

Nevertheless, according to Iranian dissident Mohsen Behzad Karimi, this particular stoning case is quite suspicious: “Since the case is not only adultery and involves a video of the crime which has gone viral after the arrest and also relates to the involvement of a cleric as a defendant, this raises a lot of questions about this story. Bear in mind that the barbaric sentences like stoning have been less in use by judges in recent years due to the international protests against such court decisions. The case is still too young and considering the news coverage, which is quite rare on crimes committed by clerics, raises the suspicions of the real goals of the authorities about publicizing the case. Similar and even harsher punishments in the past did not grab such media attention and many reformist websites contributed in a rare move regarding this case. Does this case have a political motive to it? I seriously cannot comment at this early stage. However, I cannot find an appropriate answer to the questions surrounding the case.”

So…..even Karimi suspects that the Iranian case is bullshit.

I can provide thousands of examples if you need, but the real point was more on honor killing in Muslim society:

Well, that’s actually quite easy. Honor killing is not permitted under Islam. Further, don’t you think it rather odd to call Hassan’s crime an “honor killing” when Aasiya was his third wife and his first two wives are still tooling about?

And he says, “ The choice that stands before Muslim men is stark. Do we follow ancient and evil practices, creating a cycle of violence and grief, and use culture as an excuse for our sins? Or do we follow our Prophet and create a better world where men and women treat each other with dignity and love?” So he clearly admits “honor killings” are part of the Muslim culture but that it foes against true teachings from the Quran and I believe that sounds fair.

Actually, that’s a misread. The quote from that very good article is this:

So if all this is true, where does this idea of “honor killing” come from in the Muslim world? Unfortunately, it is one of the ugly elements of pre-Islamic Arabian culture that continues to reassert itself, despite the Prophet’s efforts to eradicate the practice.

So, Pasha clearly states that “honor killing” is a PRE-ISLAMIC cultural practice that, like several other practices (female genital mutilation being another) that have unfortunately not just persisted, but been adopted into the medieval understanding of the faith.

Nope, lost of cultured practiced beheading, all but one has grown out of that mindset though. And this was my point. The practice is still very much alive in Muslim culture and society.

Well, you failed to make your case on that. You simply don’t wish to separate vigilantism from jurisprudence.

Again this is disingenuous

OK, that’s enough.

One of the ugly results of 9/11 was the emergence of demogogues like Pam Gellar, Daniel Pipes, Richard Spencer, Jihadwatch, and other pundits who were bound and determined to sell the idea that Islam is, and would always be by definition, a murderous cult. They did so by “prooftexting” the Quran and Hadith, which is the process of extracting specific “texts” from those writings designed to “prove” a predetermined thesis, and ignoring the historical, cultural, and societal envelopes that those Scriptures are interpreted by.

Using this technique, it is very easy for me, or anyone else, to prove that Judaism is a murderous cult directly from the Torah, or that Christianity is a murderous cult directly from the Old and New Testaments. Piece of cake.

Unfortunately, those aforementioned demogogues have spawned a cottage industry among some American conservatives, where suddenly people have become experts in Scriptures they were never taught, the cultures in countries they have never been to, and histories which are never discussed at all in American schools. That;s a recipe for disaster. And God Help Us if we take the media at their word on any of it.

For some reason, you seem to want to hold me responsible for explaining things that a bunch of ya-hoos with medieval thinking do half way across the world. I can’t explain that. I can tell you that stoning is not LEGALLY practiced anywhere outside of Saudi Arabia. I can tell you that beheading is not LEGALLY practiced in Pakistan. I can tell you that because I can google it. So can you.

Now, if somebody in some country then goes ahead and does it anyway………what does that mean? It means the the government isn’t very strong in those countries, or in some regions of those countries…..but that’s really not news, is it?

And none of that has anything to do with religion. So I can tell you, with religious and historical accuracy, for example, that honor killing is not an ISLAMIC practice. That is a statement of FACT. Now, if a muslim person halfway across the world engages in an honor killing, and says he did it for religious reasons……does that change the FACT?

Of course not.

Data Driven Econophile. Muslim, USA born. Been “woke” 2x: 1st, when I realized the world isn’t fair; 2nd, when I realized the “woke” people are full of shit.

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